Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

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Danny D
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Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Danny D »

Hi Adelade. We can continue our discussion here.

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Just to clear up any confusion about setting score card yardages, let me explain what happens when you move the "aiming line" around. For the sake of this discussion, I will call the line that you set for your tee shot placements an "AIMING LINE"

To begin with, I'll describe the method I use, and what I believe to be the proper way to lay out a standard sized hole that falls within the APCD's requirements. I used hole 1 at Wakonda. These pictures are a good example of what I would consider a standard hole. The first thing to understand is that I'm creating an actual course, and I have target yardages to set for each tee. When I start to lay out a hole, first I make sure that the yardages I want to achieve will fit properly within the hole from tee to green. I start the "aiming line" at the "Center of Tee" (point A) and draw the line down the middle of the fairway to around 280 yds (point B) And then go from there to the center of the green (point C). I make sure that the total yardage of A to B, and B to C adds up to the exact yardage I want.

(comment: I think that the "Center of Tee" indicator is referring to the CENTER from left-to-right. You can place it anywhere you want on a tee box, but the APCD expects it to be centered in such a way that your tee markers will fall on the tee grass and not off the edge into the rough. The APCD does not care or even sense how long your tee boxes are. If just prefers that you start in the CENTER)

My back tee gets planted at the beginning of point A, (Center of Tee) and my pin-1 gets planted at the end of point C (Center of Green). Once I do a "validate and save" the score card and the hole yardage has been established for that hole. All other tees on that hole are then planted at the yardage you need for that specific tee to pin-1. After a V & S that will establish THEIR score card and hole yardages.

Once they have been established, if you move either pin-1 or ANY of the other tees forward or backwards, the hole yardages and score card yardage will change. The correct scorecard and hole yardages will show up in the "Course Properties" menu under the HOLE INFO tab. Hole yard and score card yardages should be adjusted by moving either the tees or pin-1 forward or backwards. Moving just a single tee will change only that specific tees yardage. However, moving pin-1 will change ALL tee yardages at the same time. Because they are all measured from each tee to Pin-1.

Here is a series of pictures of what takes place when you move the "aiming line" but leave the tees and pin-1 where they are.


PIC 1
This is the original untouched course as it was designed. Notice that the aiming line runs from the back tee to pin 1 near the center of the green


01.jpg
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PIC 2
I moved points A, B, and C way out off line and into the rough to see what changes. Next I did a V&S, and then loaded the course in Links. I created a game and set up 2 AI players and watched them play hole 1. Both of them hit into the left rough, directly to where I had point B placed. However, they both hit from the woods straight at the pin on the green, and NOT toward the right rough where I had place point C. This verifies that the "aiming line" is just that. It gives the AI players a line to aim at.
(comment: My theory and belief is that since the AI's could reach the pin, they shot directly at it instead of over to where I moved point C. That's what they are programmed to do. However, had this hole been an unreachable par 5, I firmly believe they would have hit over to the right rough where I had placed point C. I have seen that happen quite a few times over the years while playing other courses.


02.jpg
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PIC 3
Read the picture comments


03.jpg
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PIC 4
Read the picture comments


04.jpg
04.jpg (342.48 KiB) Viewed 4154 times

PIC 5
The "Course Properties" HOLE INFO menus for Tee 1 and Tee 2 yardages. These figures will be what shows on the scorecard in the game.


05.jpg
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PIC 6
Here's the score card as shown in Links 2003 during all of this testing. These yardages match the "course properties" menu in the APCD, and are the accurate yardages that I set up when I created the course. Thru all of this testing, my correct score card and hole yardage never changed in Links. Never once did I move any tees or pins. Only the aiming line.


06.jpg
06.jpg (442.92 KiB) Viewed 4154 times


The bottom line here is that the scorecard and hole yardage is set by the distance from TEE-1 to PIN-1. When I stated it was set from the BACK tee to Pin-1, I was assuming that was under normal conditions where the back tee was tee 1. There are exceptions to that. You could place tee-2 behind tee-1 if you want. But this discussion was about a normal standard hole that works within the APCD's somewhat limited rules.

Dan
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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Adelade
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Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Adelade »

Dan Im glad we're figuring it out, however I will have to disagree with you about how this works. Did you see this post I made? viewtopic.php?p=2701#p2701

My testing shows that the pins dont matter at all for the scorecard, try it with the first pin at the very back or very front of your green, as long as the center point of the green is in the middle, the scorecard will still be correct. I concluded that the only thing that matters is the location of each individual planted tee and the location of aiming line point B (and C and D with par 4s and par 5s). Also, they only matter when last planting or moving the planted tees. If not touching the planted tees, you can do anything to both pins and aiming points without affecting the scorecard. Whenever re-planting or moving tees the scorecard will update to where the aiming points are at that point in time.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Danny D
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Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Danny D »

Adelade wrote: April 4th, 2020, 9:45 am Dan Im glad we're figuring it out, however I will have to disagree with you about how this works. Did you see this post I made? viewtopic.php?p=2701#p2701

My testing shows that the pins dont matter at all for the scorecard, try it with the first pin at the very back or very front of your green, as long as the center point of the green is in the middle, the scorecard will still be correct. I concluded that the only thing that matters is the location of each individual planted tee and the location of aiming line point B (and C and D with par 4s and par 5s). Also, they only matter when last planting or moving the planted tees. If not touching the planted tees, you can do anything to both pins and aiming points without affecting the scorecard. Whenever re-planting or moving tees the scorecard will update to where the aiming points are at that point in time.
Yes, I saw the post, but can't seem to replicate what you were saying. Do this for me. Tell me which course you found this out on. I want to load it up in the APCD and see for myself what you are talking about when you say you can move tees and pins without it changing the scorecard distance.
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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Adelade
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Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Adelade »

Interesting. I tested on a course I quickly made simply for the purpose of the testing, with just 2-3 holes. But I have seen it in 2 other courses within APCD as well. I will try on Wakonda now and detail what I do.

-Opened Wakonda in Links, practice round, hole 1, changed my settings from meters to yards, checked numbers for hole 1 on scorecard. Closed Links.
-Opened Wakonda in a clean APCD, went to hole 1, box selected all pins for hole 1 to be safe, moved them to the extreme far/back end of the green. Changed course name to Wakonda testClub (just to be able to distinguish it), saved as Wakonda testClub.CRZ. Did V&S.
-Opened Links, practice round, hole 1, Scorecard is identical to before.

-Opened Wakonda testClub.CRZ in APCD again, went to hole 1, Plan > Move, de-select lock tee and green center, moved green center of hole 1 to extreme front/short end of green.
-Went to plant tee, and moved the hole 1 back tee half a yard to the right. Did V&S.
-Opened Links, practice round, hole 1, Scorecard for Middle, Front, Junior and Ladies tees identical to before. Back tee on the other hand changed from 431 to 418 yards.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Danny D
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Location: SE Missouri

Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Danny D »

Adelade wrote: April 4th, 2020, 11:16 am -Opened Wakonda in a clean APCD, went to hole 1, box selected all pins for hole 1 to be safe, moved them to the extreme far/back end of the green.
I have mentioned multiple times about working normally with a course within the APCD limits. I would say the move as described above is not a normal APCD move that I can imagine anyone ever needing to make. It would be quite unusual to even consider moving all pins at one time. How about trying to move PIN-1 by itself, as I originally suggested.
Adelade wrote: April 4th, 2020, 11:16 amChanged course name to Wakonda testClub (just to be able to distinguish it)
Did you change the course name in the APCD properties, or are you talking about changing the CRZ file name? Links recognizes the course by the Course Name in the APCD properties menu, NOT by the CRZ name. If you left more than 1 copy of Wakonda in the COURSE folder, there's a good chance that you may have reopened the wrong course and NOT the one you edited. Delete the CRZ file extension off of the other CRZ, or move it completely out of the course folder so the one and only single Wakonda file left in the course folder is the one you last edited. Just to be on the safe side, I would also delete any .SHA file from Wakonda every time you make changes and re-load it in Links to test.
Adelade wrote: April 4th, 2020, 11:16 amOpened Wakonda testClub.CRZ in APCD again, went to hole 1,
This remark tells me you only renamed the CRZ and not the COURSE NAME in the APCD properties menu.
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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Adelade
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Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Adelade »

As I said, I both changed the (properties) course name and the filename. Im very certain I selected the correct course within Links. I only moved all pins to the edge because I thought it would be the surest proof. I have seen the same indications in my previous tests even when moving just the first pin to a realistic location, and without renaming either the properties course name or the filename. Having tested 3 times on 3 different courses already, I feel very certain of my findings, and would prefer to see some test results of anyone getting any different results than me before testing yet again, but ok I can probably do it tomorrow.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Danny D
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Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Danny D »

Adelade wrote: April 4th, 2020, 2:28 pm As I said, I both changed the (properties) course name and the filename. Im very certain I selected the correct course within Links. I only moved all pins to the edge because I thought it would be the surest proof.
Proof of what? We should be looking for the correct method of setting the hole yardages. I have laid my method out with detailed explanations and pictures. It works on every course I have made. I know of no other way to accomplish it. You have expressed doubt as to whether my method is correct. What I would like for you to do is present YOUR method in more detail that I can understand. So far you have only spoke of things that will cause odd things to happen that you don't understand. We need to know the positives, not the negatives. Wouldn't you agree? :smile:

Dan :cheers1:
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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Adelade
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Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Adelade »

Your method works fine, Im only disagreeing with trying to tell people to put their first pin in the middle. Specifically I find both these parts to be incorrect:
- where you say moving pin-1 will change the scorecard
- where you say the scorecard is set by the distance from TEE-1 (and other tees) to PIN1.

Since you said you were unable to replicate what I was seeing, I assumed you got different results than me about moving pins which I wanted to see. It would be easier for me to know how to further illustrate my point or otherwise move forward if I saw what you had done to test out what I was saying. I felt like I had already done enough to back up my statements, while there is nothing shown of anything that goes against my "theory".
Danny D wrote: April 5th, 2020, 5:57 amSo far you have only spoke of things that will cause odd things to happen that you don't understand.
This is unfair to say, ever since I got to the bottom of it in the other thread I feel like I understand everything clearly except for the part about you not seeing same things I do.
Adelade wrote: April 4th, 2020, 9:45 amI concluded that the only thing that matters is the location of each individual planted tee and the location of aiming line point B (and C and D with par 4s and par 5s). Also, they only matter when last planting or moving the planted tees.
I tested again with the same method as above except taking into account your suggestions and got the same results. If you try these things you should see what Im seeing. You dont have to do the same process with course naming unless you want to, as long as you make sure you select the correct ones.

-Checked scorecard numbers for hole 1 of Wakonda (in its pure published state).
-Cut out Wakonda Club.CRZ from COURSES folder and pasted on my desktop. Deleted all shadow files for Wakonda.
-Opened the desktop Wakonda Club.CRZ in APCD
-Went to hole 1, moved the first pin (pin #1 in APCD) 6 yards towards the back of the green. Didnt touch any other pins. Didnt change any names, selected 'Save As...' went to COURSES folder and saved as Wakonda Club.CRZ. Did V&S.
-Opened the only Wakonda in Links in practice mode, checked hole 1 scorecard. Still same as before.
This shows that the first pin can be moved without affecting the scorecard. Otherwise the scorecard would have shown about 6 yards longer for all tees.

-Closed Links. Deleted all Wakonda shadow files.
-Opened the Wakonda Club.CRZ from the COURSES folder again in APCD, went to hole 1, Plan > Move, de-select lock tee and green center, moved hole 1 center of green 6 yards towards the front of the green.
-Went to plant tee, and moved the hole 1 back tee half a yard to the right. Did V&S.
-Opened Links, practice round, hole 1, Scorecard for Middle, Front, Junior and Ladies tees identical to before. Back tee on the other hand changed from 431 to 424 yards. Since it shows 7 yards shorter (close enough to 6):
This shows that the scorecard measures the distance to the center of the green point instead of any pin. It also shows that it only updates differences to that point for tees that are moved. From other testing I also personally feel very certain the same can be said for re-planted tees.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Danny D
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Location: SE Missouri

Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Danny D »

Adelade wrote: April 5th, 2020, 11:14 am Your method works fine, Im only disagreeing with trying to tell people to put their first pin in the middle. Specifically I find both these parts to be incorrect:
- where you say moving pin-1 will change the scorecard
- where you say the scorecard is set by the distance from TEE-1 (and other tees) to PIN1.

Since you said you were unable to replicate what I was seeing, I assumed you got different results than me about moving pins which I wanted to see. It would be easier for me to know how to further illustrate my point or otherwise move forward if I saw what you had done to test out what I was saying. I felt like I had already done enough to back up my statements, while there is nothing shown of anything that goes against my "theory".
Danny D wrote: April 5th, 2020, 5:57 amSo far you have only spoke of things that will cause odd things to happen that you don't understand.
This is unfair to say, ever since I got to the bottom of it in the other thread I feel like I understand everything clearly except for the part about you not seeing same things I do.
Adelade wrote: April 4th, 2020, 9:45 amI concluded that the only thing that matters is the location of each individual planted tee and the location of aiming line point B (and C and D with par 4s and par 5s). Also, they only matter when last planting or moving the planted tees.
I tested again with the same method as above except taking into account your suggestions and got the same results. If you try these things you should see what Im seeing. You dont have to do the same process with course naming unless you want to, as long as you make sure you select the correct ones.

-Checked scorecard numbers for hole 1 of Wakonda (in its pure published state).
-Cut out Wakonda Club.CRZ from COURSES folder and pasted on my desktop. Deleted all shadow files for Wakonda.
-Opened the desktop Wakonda Club.CRZ in APCD
-Went to hole 1, moved the first pin (pin #1 in APCD) 6 yards towards the back of the green. Didnt touch any other pins. Didnt change any names, selected 'Save As...' went to COURSES folder and saved as Wakonda Club.CRZ. Did V&S.
-Opened the only Wakonda in Links in practice mode, checked hole 1 scorecard. Still same as before.
This shows that the first pin can be moved without affecting the scorecard. Otherwise the scorecard would have shown about 6 yards longer for all tees.

-Closed Links. Deleted all Wakonda shadow files.
-Opened the Wakonda Club.CRZ from the COURSES folder again in APCD, went to hole 1, Plan > Move, de-select lock tee and green center, moved hole 1 center of green 6 yards towards the front of the green.
-Went to plant tee, and moved the hole 1 back tee half a yard to the right. Did V&S.
-Opened Links, practice round, hole 1, Scorecard for Middle, Front, Junior and Ladies tees identical to before. Back tee on the other hand changed from 431 to 424 yards. Since it shows 7 yards shorter (close enough to 6):
This shows that the scorecard measures the distance to the center of the green point instead of any pin. It also shows that it only updates differences to that point for tees that are moved. From other testing I also personally feel very certain the same can be said for re-planted tees.
OK, great. Thanks for your time and for a more detailed explanation of how you were testing. I will follow your testing instructions and take a look. I'll get back to you later with my findings.

:cheers1:
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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Jimbo
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Re: Adjusting Tee-to-Green Yardages.

Post by Jimbo »

Remember-this suggestion is coming from a "newbie".
When dealing with a "real" course do you set the distance from tee to the dead centre of the green using the scorecard that's posted on the club website? (at least 99% of club websites) and do you make that pin #1?
That way there's at least one hole that's the "perfect" distance and you can then go about the business of being "naughty" or "nice". :whistle:
Any pins that are within, say 10 feet of the "centre pin" could be rated as "Moderate".
That would make the Nit Picker's job a lot easier.
In spite off what I just said, here's a link showing the way that they do it in Australia and in the USGA. I think my idea is better!

https://www.golfnet.ie/sites/ContentCon ... Manual.pdf

BTW in looking at some APCD instruction screenshots it looks as if there are a possible 18 pin placements available. Am I misreading it?

I also see that there are both men's and ladies' (maybe it should be renamed "women's" :nono: ) handicap ratings-I'm guessing that that's a systemic issue.
Right?
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