Monument Golf Club

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GoesForIt
Posts: 36
Joined: September 27th, 2019, 3:17 pm

Monument Golf Club

Post by GoesForIt »

Does anyone have contact with Matthew Rose, designer of the subject golf club?

I have a recommendation. He has used the category Earth for the every seam blend to include Rough, Fairway, Approach Blend, Fringe Blend and the Green Blend.

When an approached hits any of these seam blends, the ball bounces like it hit a concrete cart path. It seems like an easy fix.

I'll be happy to fix it if given permission by the author.
collar.jpg
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Last edited by GoesForIt on February 19th, 2021, 9:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Adelade
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by Adelade »

I dont think its the seamblend doing it because seamblends dont use the setting inside the ring you drew, they use the ones below it instead, I think its the property of the fairway itself (and maybe the fringe as well), because if memory serves from when I played the course around a year ago the whole fairway caused the hard bounces. It may have been intentional by the designer to make the fairways a bit firmer, but I agree that it was overdone and feels unrealistic.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
GoesForIt
Posts: 36
Joined: September 27th, 2019, 3:17 pm

Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by GoesForIt »

Well, I did new seam blends for 3 of them and when I tested the boingy, boingy was gone. I've done more than a few courses and the ball is going to react the way the Category says it will. I've run into more than just Monument golf club doing this with similar results.

When I look up Fringe (M-Fringe) and Collar (M-Collar), the Category for both is Fairway. I may be wrong, but I believe it is that Category Earth was selected.

It's hard for me to believe an author would purposely use a Category that allow a ball hitting on the front fringe to end up 20-30 yards over the green.
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Stephen Sullivan
Posts: 314
Joined: August 26th, 2019, 8:42 pm

Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by Stephen Sullivan »

This is from the readme on the download page:

CHANGES FROM BETA VERSION:

- Some texture properties have changed, particular the bunker lip (which one person said was acting as a hazard), wash, and a few blends. In play testing it was noted some of the grass textures had a hard bouncing quality to them for some players, though these have not been edited from "normal" properties. Beta testers did not find this disruptive to game play. The course has been left unlocked to allow players to change their own texture properties if they desire.
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Adelade
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Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by Adelade »

GoesForIt wrote: February 19th, 2021, 9:06 pmthe ball is going to react the way the Category says it will.
In cases where there are no custom texture properties used, yes. There may have been custom ones (set with the APCD mod or Links Extender) for the course in question. But my point was merely that the Category shown on pages for Seam Blend textures does not matter.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Adelade
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Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by Adelade »

Hmm... the fact that you said the fairway and fringe were set to Fairway category intrigued me, because I did not think custom properties could be set to fairway textures, or at least not them working unless if the player chooses to play with course conditions. Stephen's quote from the readme further intrigues... So I wonder if perhaps there is a bug or shortcoming with APCD at work here, perhaps I am completely wrong about the greyed out setting not mattering for specifically the bounce-part of properties in that case. You might be absolutely right GoesForIt and I will apologize in the meantime until I get a chance to investigate further. Hopefully I can tomorrow. I was going by what one of the APCD guides told me when I started out, but perhaps it is only the lie properties that dont depend on the Seam Blend category.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
GoesForIt
Posts: 36
Joined: September 27th, 2019, 3:17 pm

Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by GoesForIt »

Adelade wrote: February 19th, 2021, 10:41 pm Hmm...
I'm not 100% certain of anything. All I can say is that I created what were basically clones of those three seam blends but use Category Fairway and the boingy, boingy was fixed.


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GoesForIt
Posts: 36
Joined: September 27th, 2019, 3:17 pm

Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by GoesForIt »

Here's sort of an oddity

I said create a new terrain type. If I select Category "Fairway" and save it, it stays Fairway when I open it back up for edit. I go do the seam blend work in "Edit Material" and when I come back, it's still Category "Fairway".

If I create a new Terrain type, set the category to "Fairway" but go to Edit Material before saving it, it comes back as category "Other" and cannot be changed. Possibly if the Category is "Other" the Categories of the seam blends are used?

What it looks like happened is that Matthew Rose Created a new terrain type, selected Earth and saved it. Then came back in and did the seam blend work, but the category remained Earth. Earth must have overridden the categories of the seam blend types?

That would be inline with what you said... that being that he selected Earth on purpose... buy why I cannot understand.
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Adelade
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Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by Adelade »

Seeing the quote from Stephen, I no longer think it was intentional by the designer, it seems really mysterious how these bounces have happened on this course, I bet its an APCD bug or quirk with APCD always using the Seamblend category for when balls bounce and roll on a seamblend, but not when playing from them, I have an idea how to test my hypothesis out but am unable to do it until later. Also, it seemed like the middle of the fairways dont bounce hard after all, so my memory about that part must have been wrong, or possibly I just got the wrong impression at the time I played it a year ago. When you redid the Seam Blends, did you use the same old Seam Blend texture or created a new one where the greyed out category was not Earth?
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Adelade
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Re: Monument Golf Club

Post by Adelade »

I tested it out and indeed, bounce properties inside a Seamblend's effective area* seem to always be what the greyed out seam blend Category is set to. Note that this ONLY applies to bounces and nothing else. When playing from a seamblend, the area functions as the properties set as Terrain 1 and Terrain 2, just as one would expect. Curiously enough, once a ball has stopped bouncing, and starts rolling, the proper Terrain 1 / Terrain 2 properties are used again, it is only the very bounces that are... well... bugged.

I dont know if this has been discovered before, but I've never heard of it and I wouldnt be surprised if it has gone under the radar until now, I suppose the reason for that (in that case) is that bounces for the most common ground types within play areas (fairway, rough, deep rough, sand) have quite similar bounces (with the exception of plugged sand landings). Even most green settings are probably pretty similar to those but I suppose it would probably be possible to notice oddities if playing with very soft greens or very firm ones, and landing very near the fringe while still clearly on the green, and not experiencing the expected soft or firm bounce.

Personally I've always used a grass category in my seam blend textures, and most designers probably did, so then it would be extremely rare for anyone to notice anything weird, but I guess the main takeaway here is to be very careful not to have seam blend textures where the greyed out category is Pavement or Earth or Gravel or Rock or one of the less common categories with characteristic bounces (unless the blend is between two such textures). I will also try to remember to set blends for bunkers to sand, fringe-green ones to green, and the others as accurate as possible, but they probably dont matter that much as long as its some kind of grass category. If one has a rough-to-pavement seamblend for example it seems impossible to get both sides of the seamblend to bounce correctly, the best one can do is to make the blend narrow enough that no one will notice. It might be interesting to see what happens with water blends, but I didnt bother testing that. (I only tested Sand, Rough, Fairway and Asphalt, and assume other categories function the same).

* = This does not equal the area of the Faces set to the seamblend, but rather the visual area that the alpha texture spreads out on, which includes the full span of the alpha texture including the sides which may or may not "look" like they're part of the blend. With horizontal seamblends (as opposed to extrusion-style) it should in most cases be similar enough to the area of the Faces, depending on sharpness of edges and density of verts. I tested with extrusion seamblends and the same phenomenon occurs.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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