Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

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Danny D
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Joined: August 27th, 2019, 1:09 am
Location: SE Missouri

Re: Coeur d'Alene Hole 17 Revisions...

Post by Danny D »

Hi fellas...

Looks like I' have some free time for a few days, so lets talk about hole 17.

To begin with Pete had the idea to move the tree in the left dogleg so you had an open view of the green, and then changing it from a par 4 to a par 3.

Here are a few thoughts about that idea. First I'll point out that I have no opinion one way or the other. I'll accept anything that you guys want. But I can offer some other options to give us something more to think about.

Obviously the main reason the course is so short is because it has five par 3's. Currently it is a par 71 course with five, par 3 holes. 3 on the front and 2 on the back. Changing 17 to a par 3 makes it a par 70, with six, par 3 holes, or 3 per side. How does everyone feel about that many par 3's ?

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Adelade suggested possibly moving the tee back farther, but there's just not enough room to get more than about 18 yards additional distance, which IMO, wouldn't be enough of a change to matter. It's only 23 yards straight back to the OB fence and if you put it too close to the fence it would block the tee camera view. I suspect 18 yards would be about all I could safely squeeze out of it.

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I'll offer some options, but first we need to clarify and agree on the degree of modifications. I've seen chat about making revisions to the grounds, such as removing a tennis court. That's acceptable to me, if everyone else agrees. Remember, it's YOUR course, and can be set up specifically for tournament play.

My question is: If we agree that some of the grounds structures can be moved or removed to make way for more golf space, I would like to remove the grey main entry driveway where it crosses the course behind the 9th tee. That will open the course up for some revisions, such as hole 17. What are everyone's thoughts about the degree of revisions we will accept?

Here are some before-and-after screen shots of my ideas for 17. Notice the cart paths and driveway have been removed. Look them over and let me know if you think the change is way too much...

BEFORE - https://www.dropbox.com/s/6l2fy9uzit3sg ... l.jpg?dl=0

AFTER - https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hivb6evfuot7 ... s.jpg?dl=0

My idea would be to turn the 17th green into a fairway landing area, and move the 17 green back between 130 and 150 yards near where the driveway is now. Plus I would suggest removing the cart paths on both sides of 17. Doing so gives us room to move the back tees for holes 9 and 18 about 20 yards back. These 3 changes would add about 180 yards to the course, and hole 17 would remain as a par 4, but it would play to about 420 yards. Another thought would be do add a pond with reflective water between the end of the fairway and the 17th green. Perhaps the pond could actually come into play off the tee if you have a strong wind behind you. If we go with a pond we can also determine how close the water can be to the green and what kind of shoreline to give it. I believe all of these revisions would add some extra spice and beauty to this course.

Keep in mind that these are merely suggestions of things I would be willing to do. We can do some, all, or none. The final decisions would be up to you gentlemen.

I welcome your thoughts and ideas. Jump in and lets discuss it.

Dan
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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Kunkleman
Posts: 138
Joined: September 3rd, 2019, 12:40 pm

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by Kunkleman »

I see no need for a tournament version. If the consensus is to make these changes, I would vote to give it a different name. No objection to a new course. Just MHO.
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Danny D
Posts: 1107
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 1:09 am
Location: SE Missouri

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by Danny D »

Kunkleman wrote: January 7th, 2022, 11:25 am I see no need for a tournament version. If the consensus is to make these changes, I would vote to give it a different name. No objection to a new course. Just MHO.
Hi Kunkleman. There are others that are interested in a Tournament version. I'm doing this for them. The name will be "Coeur d'Alene Tournament Edition".

Dan
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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Adelade
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by Adelade »

On one hand, I feel like, its not that important exactly how the tournament course turns out, Im sure I'll be happy with it either way, but on the other hand, the course is so fantastic that trying to get every little detail "perfect" is totally worth it! So I will happily discuss things like this for days! :laugh:

While I care a lot about the tournament version and probably will have a lot of things to say about individual details, Im not gonna rage unless I get things the way I want them, I just want my views to at least be heard.

I would mainly like to see smaller changes that dont change the main character of the course/holes too much. I feel like 17th plays well as a driveable par 4. It being made into a par 3 would be interesting for sure, but I think it would make it a really brutal par 3 unless one of the slightly shorter tees were used (in Dan's first screenshot link, you can see that there is a tee area a little further down, with an easier angle towards the green, I theorize that one is intended as a par 3 tee in real life). A par 3 that brutal all of a sudden, I think would feel out of place for this course and make players raise their eyebrows a bit. Sure, 14th will play pretty tough at 218 yards too, but at least that one doesnt require a 3W, and that green slopes back-to-front, and the hazard on 14th isnt hiding part of the green as tightly as on 17th, making 14th green a lot easier to end up on than 17th, and the hole more realistic IMO (again, unless the shorter tees are used, but if that is done, we have the problem of the course becoming easier in the sense of scoring under 60 or under 70 for example, so Im not a big fan of that). Also yeah, as you said, there already are a lot of par 3 holes on the course.

Thoughts about keeping it a driveable par 4: I figured that possibly you wouldnt like the idea of making a tee behind the fence-line, fair enough. I think the 18 yards further that you speak of would have a somewhat big effect on making the hole tougher still though, that should make it 255 yards to the frontside fringe, about 270 to the middle of the green and 285 to the backside fringe. A 3W being 260 yards for most Linksters, would then not really be enough to hit more than the very front edge of the green I believe (depends on wind direction, I believe the average one is pretty much straight from the right side at 17th, so sometimes it could be enough with 3W, sometimes not). Hitting the front edge of the green is still a great shot of course, but I still think many players would opt to go with the driver unless the pin is placed on the easy front-right section of the green. For tournament setups, most pins should not be placed there unless the tournament directors are asking for the course to be devoured by players, and arguably 2 or 3 (out of 4) pins should be placed on or near the tough back-left section of the green, a Driver (or 2W) should become the more normal club choice then, Im thinking. Possibly, the green could even be subtly moved 5-10 yards backwards too? Even without removing the road that is. Maybe even 20-30? It wouldnt change the character of the hole, and it is far from impossible to think that they might make such a change in real life too, if a relatively big tournament was planned to be hosted.

Adding a water hazard: Interesting idea... I actually had this same idea for another hole, not sure when to bring it up but I'll save it since right now the discussion is about 17th. I wasnt sure whether adding a water hazard is "too much" or not, but I think I personally like it, for 17th too. It is something that isnt too unlikely to happen in real life, if they were trying to spice the course up for a relatively big tournament. I think it would bring an excellent risk-reward element to 17th if it is kept as a par 4. There are only 4 holes with water in play on the course, which isnt that much, so a little more wouldnt be crazy in that sense. I understand if adding water might be too much for some people, but if it is only done on holes that are already really easy to make for a risk-reward element, and in places that feel natural enough, Im personally in favour, I think it would make the course play a lot more fun in Links at least, and I dont think it would make the course "too fictional". Just my view. Question is... should the water hazard be constructed in the bunker pit... or be placed on the back-right of the hole... Both ways would be very interesting, I think.

Making the 17th a long par 4: Personally not in favour because it would be a really big change to the character, and I dont think it is "required". Im not really opposed to it and would be completely ok with it if most people want it, I just prefer other options.

Upon reading your message again Dan, I realize that your water hazard idea perhaps was for the long-par-4 option, or perhaps you meant some other place for a driveable par 4 than those I mentioned, there are many options to be sure.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
pmgolf
Posts: 1096
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 2:41 am
Location: near Richmond, VA

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by pmgolf »

I was thinking "Just extend it" until I saw your suggestion, Dan. I know it's not finalized, but I like the idea of the lake. One whole side of the green could border the lake. The challenge of the hole is a lot more important than the cart paths, to me. :clapping:

Pete
fiver
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Joined: September 24th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by fiver »

Let the trees grow taller to force players to choose a layup club.
gene_golf
Posts: 267
Joined: August 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by gene_golf »

[quote=fiver post_id=12915 time=1641566165 user_id=296]
Let the trees grow taller to force players to choose a layup club.
[/quote]

Looking at flyovers the trees to left of hole #17 look to be taller, thicker and edge out into fairway moreso than what Danny has represented. Just played hole and took direct line to green hitting a flop 5 wood since playing with windy conditions and it was directly behind me. Without wind would have had to possibly go with 3 wood, but that trajectory can clear trees as well. Also looking at flyovers the juniper bushes would seem to be accurately represented. Perhaps revising them to look different with fake colored big red berries in them might be done as in some cases what is real turns out looking just unusual or ugly. Then looking at fiver's post, a right to left shot can reach 269 yard hole where from times have played it---never yet have had to play into wind restricting distance can hit meaning there is no need to layup drive. Also looking at trouble around green only being the left front sand trap and that is not all that much trouble as sand save makes for a birdie anyway on hole as a par 4.
gene_golf
Posts: 267
Joined: August 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by gene_golf »

The course as done plays as a resort course and not as a championship course. Sure the 14th could be stretched to 218 yards and the 12th stretched to 250 yards looking at scorecard. Somehow I found water to left of 12th green playing at only 200 yards and questioned Danny's decision about water there being OOB. I wish I could find the course rules as the course is set up. There is a simulator for course, but not having cell phone cannot sign in and check possibilities to see way course sets rules. Plus would be interesting to know what simulator is all about. https://www.cdagolfclub.com/club-rules/
There are a few longer par 4's on course that probably play just as tough as the shortish par 5's at holes #1 and #15. Only a few holes have front sand traps really pinching in to where might place pins and these holes are the par 3's on front 9. That is an unusual aspect about this course having 3 par 3's in a span of 4 holes. Hole #5 was totally redone back in 2004 and do not have PGA 2000 game now, but seem to remember that hole once playing uphill and blind over a sand mound.
gene_golf
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Joined: August 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by gene_golf »

[quote=pmgolf post_id=12913 time=1641561070 user_id=83]
I was thinking "Just extend it" until I saw your suggestion, Dan. I know it's not finalized, but I like the idea of the lake. One whole side of the green could border the lake. The challenge of the hole is a lot more important than the cart paths, to me. :clapping:

Pete
[/quote]

Extending the hole making for longer par 4 with lake in front of a new green, Dan's idea looks a bit cramped into tight areas between 2 other holes. Idea of a new lake in place of present sand trap makes sense to me as could be played as par 3 from shorter tee out to right leaving trees in place to left side or as par 4 pretty much in present layout. Having lake instead of sand trap would cause players to really think if they wanted to go for green or layup drive playing hole as a par 4. Here in Links would have to go one way or the other for score purposes as not thinking a 3rd course needed just to have alternative options to play just one hole having different par choices. Would make sense for real course to have a more interesting hole near the end of the round different in either way play than rest of holes on the course. By overhead layout shown the hole just seems fitted in and real course designer made it different than other holes on course, but not as interesting or testy as could be and with new lake---that would add to what is already great scenery. As I said in another of my posts---trees do not seem to be exact as are on real course watching visuals of the holes and if fixed, then would need to play right to left shot in order to go around them. Even if trees were a bit taller---then 5 wood with aid of wind gets to green now, so whatever distance can back tee up needs to also take place.
pmgolf
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Joined: August 27th, 2019, 2:41 am
Location: near Richmond, VA

Re: Coeur d'Alene Golf Course

Post by pmgolf »

Gene, you understand why, I hope, that I don't read anything you post... :wallbash:

Pete
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