Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

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morvio100
Posts: 329
Joined: April 6th, 2022, 11:02 am

Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by morvio100 »

This is just a noob type question regards whether or not the Links 2k3 engine has the ability or could be tweaked to render 3d grass, some of the textures currently used by both by past and present designers are absolutely superb, but just wondered whether or not the engine has the ability to render more sophisticated foliage - (or would this make the rendering times between holes unbearably long).. and second part of the question relates to whether the sim could produce more defined low cast shadows, this is not say the current level of courses are superb they are, but I have noticed when a ball lands beside a tree off the fairway the textures of the trees up close can at times look very pixelated and fuzzy....
gene_golf
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by gene_golf »

morvio100 wrote: May 16th, 2022, 7:33 pm This is just a noob type question regards whether or not the Links 2k3 engine has the ability or could be tweaked to render 3d grass, some of the textures currently used by both by past and present designers are absolutely superb, but just wondered whether or not the engine has the ability to render more sophisticated foliage - (or would this make the rendering times between holes unbearably long).. and second part of the question relates to whether the sim could produce more defined low cast shadows, this is not say the current level of courses are superb they are, but I have noticed when a ball lands beside a tree off the fairway the textures of the trees up close can at times look very pixelated and fuzzy....
Seeing this question asked in the course's section does not seem the right place to have done so. Sage brought subject up already in the designer's forum:
Realistic grasses
Post by sagevanni » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:22 am
I've asked this before.
What are the settings to use so grass plays realistic. What I mean is when my ball is in the APCD planted grass, I want the settings to have an affect on the shot.
That post and relative discussion by others about realistic grasses can be found by clicking this link: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1418
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Adelade
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by Adelade »

I think morvio was asking more about the visual aspect than the gameplay physics.

Whether the Links enginge has the ability to render 3D grasses - Well... technically - yes. Practically, kind of no. There can be 3D grasses as 3D objects, however, they can not move, like how you might see them sway in the wind in other games. With Links not featuring any 3D perspectives with a moving viewpoint, there might not be much point in having 3D grasses anyway, you wouldnt really be able to tell whether they are 2D or 3D from any single viewpoint alone. Add to that, 1. It might be troublesome to find good 3D grass objects in the 3D format which Links accepts. 2. I dont know if their in-game physics could be made to interact with golf balls as well as the usual 2D objects grasses. 3. I dont think the lighting and shadow system within Links interacts with 3D objects at all (I might recall wrong, but even if there are shadows, they wouldnt look particularly good). 4. And above all, it would take a lot more time and effort to put vast amounts of them into courses than the usual 2D grasses.

Whether the engine has the ability to render mass amounts of 3D object grasses without rendering times being unbearably long - That is a very good question, I havent used a lot of 3D objects so I dont have a good understanding for how much they affect rendering times. I wouldnt be surprised if it turned out to slow things down a lot, if done to any more than few select areas.

Whether the Links engine could be tweaked to render better grasses - That is also a very good question. My (uneducated) guess is that is would be very troublesome, even for a very skilled team of programmers. Might be easier to just make a whole new game.

Whether the game could produce more defined low cast shadows - Not in a traditional sense that shadows are handled in other games at least. There are some ways in which shadows can be manipulated in APCD, Im no expert on it but I have seen examples of other designers from the distant past having done some stuff like that. Those are shadows on the ground however, shadows on trees will always depend on how well-made or well-edited those particular 2D tree objects are. As a sidenote, the level of pixellation/fuzziness of for example tree trunks, will not only vary a lot based on which tree objects the designer used, but also on the "picture quality" setting for individual Links users in their graphics settings.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
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morvio100
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Joined: April 6th, 2022, 11:02 am

Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by morvio100 »

Thank you for the informed detailed reply Adelade, you were correct I was asking the visual aspect not the physics/drag effect..

"the level of pixilation/fuzziness of for example tree trunks, will not only vary a lot based on which tree objects the designer used, but also on the "picture quality" setting for individual Links users in their graphics settings."......my settings are fully to the right, Id say your correct as to the quality a designer used...I don't like nitpicking at designers because you guys do fantastic work...regards the up-close fuzziness of the off fairway or out bounds shots..I'm guessing here..but id say you guys would have to incorporate a near LOD texture(as in a HD texture the engine would load when the ball is detected/falls very close to a 2d/or 3d object ....which would be incredibly cumbersome and a hell of a lot of work....however I think it would be a really interesting prospect for a designer on here to experiment in altering a course they have built (although I do understand it would be a lot of work) to upload a Variant of their course with low cast/evening shadows *whether this shadows are manipulated by the engine - which at this time seems pretty much impossible, or to create textures *their previously used textures with low cast shadows that extend across fairways and greens...I think all on here would like to see an upload titled evening/early morning version of a specific course(this is more related to wooded/or heavily wooded courses - of which there are plenty)....Daniel Watson has created some fantastic evening skies(which add a lot of atmosphere to any course- and I'm sure low cast evening/early morning shadows would also)...so I'm sure any prospective TGC or Perfect golf fan, could never possibly look down upon this great game...something for you guys to consider for the future maybe...
gator
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by gator »

It's not shadows, but I would invite you to look at a couple courses by Lez Marwick where he experimented with fog on a course. Not a designer myself, but my limited understanding of the APCD is that you have texture files 512x512 up to 1024x1024 (must be square and a factor of 2) that make up the "floor" (terrain) of the course and then 2D and 3D objects are added. I would think that if a designer attempted to add shadows, they would have to edit the 2D and/or 3D objects to include the shadows. The way APCD works with 2D objects, the object is always "facing" the golfer, so if the golfer turns the shadows would turn with him/her/it. So, at one time the shadows might appear to be cast perpendicular to the fairway, but if the golfer turned to face the trees, the shadows would shift and appear to run with the fairway. Not sure how it would work with 3D objects, but those don't even show up in the overhead camera view. If they tried to attach the shadow to a terrain texture it would appear in every tile where that terrain texture is used. If I'm wrong here, I'm sure one of the APCD gurus will come along and set me straight, which is fine.

Battley Peak - https://linkscorner.org/courses/course.php?crz=2013

Fog at Battley Peak - https://linkscorner.org/courses/course.php?crz=2014
morvio100
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by morvio100 »

thanks for the reply Gator...you are probably right...regards the shadow direction....I guess I'm talking ideal world scenario(wishful thinking) here...i's a pity the engine is quite limited in the way it handles shadows...as in shadows draw distance and orientation and intensity(opaque to full) can not be manipulated, I presume one of the design maestros would by now have found a way...nonetheless they found a way to introduce the extra weather variable(gusty) and various ani tweaks...pity regards the shadows...if they found a way I guess the sim would shine that little bit more... :cheers1:

ps: There is a reg entry - value called /shadow cutt off /.. no sure what it does though..
pmgolf
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by pmgolf »

morvio100 - you're taking account of the fact that a majority of the code was written around 2003 and before, right? Modifications were made in 2007, but still, they did a pretty good job with what they did. Not a lot of 3D shadow work was done, but I don't think many games were at the 3D stage back then. Here it is, 2022, and people are still playing Links 2003 and still designing courses for it. I think "great job!" and "thank you!" are more appropriate comments about their work than "Hey! How come you guys didn't do 3D shadows" - don't you? And one last thing - I'm see no reason to stop working on a new course in the APCD so I can do early morning / late evening shadows on an exiting course. What's so great about those shadows?

Thanks,
Pete
morvio100
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by morvio100 »

I have said plenty of "well done's" and "thank you's" regards the designers...if you read my posts ...I see little point in you jumping down peoples throat for making some suggestions..excuse me for breathing... :oops:
pmgolf
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by pmgolf »

I had no intention of jumping down anyone's throat. But I wish you could've been around and made your suggestions when the Access programmers were still around.

Pete
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Danny D
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by Danny D »

morvio100 wrote: May 20th, 2022, 4:18 pm
"the level of pixilation/fuzziness of for example tree trunks, will not only vary a lot based on which tree objects the designer used, but also on the "picture quality" setting for individual Links users in their graphics settings."
Hi morvio...

A few word on the pixilation of textures/trees, and why it happens. I will try to make this as simple as I can without going into a lot of detail.

I purchased some professionally made trees for Coeur d'Alene. To get high-quality trees made, you should use hi-res photos. The best reason for using hi-res photos is so the graphics artist can "cut them out" in an acceptable manner. Cutting them out means to remove all of the background imagery and replace it with an invisible "alpha channel". The alpha channel is necessary for you to be able to see the background gaps between the branches and leaves. Using a low-res photo makes it extremely difficult to remove the backgrounds for the alpha channel, and many times the end result of trying, leaves you with light colored edges surrounding the leaves and branches. So using hi-res photos to start with allows the graphics artist to get good, clean edges around the tree leaves and branches, thus producing trees without the light colored edges surrounding them.

With all that in mind, some of the tree photos I purchased were, for example, maybe 4000x8000 pixels, with super clean edges and very little, if any, pixilation. Here is how they become pixilated.

The maximum allowable 2D object used in Links is 1024x1024, 32 bit TGA w/alpha channels. A 4000x8000 tree (4000 wide x 8000 tall) must be reduced to a maximum of 512 wide x 1024 tall for it to be usable. It doesn't have to be the power of 2, but neither the height nor the width can exceed 1024. When a photo of 4000x8000 is reduced to 512x1024, pixilation will most certainly take place. It will look decent from a distance in Links, but if you get up close to it, it will show up pretty badly.

Here is one of the trees I purchased if you want to do some of your own testing. Notice the size. 5400x7100. If you save it as a TGA with an alpha channel, it's 146MB. Even if we were able to actually use an image of this size in the APCD, this tree alone is bigger than many of the full completed courses. :whistle: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7irop1pjcjz7 ... n.zip?dl=0

Hopefully that will explain why we designers can't get super-sharp images of objects with extreme detail in them, and why they become pixelated.

Best wishes,

Dan
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Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
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Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
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