Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

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jwgriffingca
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by jwgriffingca »

Adelade wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 11:33 am The way I heard it, is that unlike APCD, the course designer program for the TGC series was made to (or perhaps modded to) be able to import Lidar data straight away. And if thats true, Im guessing those guys on the TGC forums would not be able to help in terms of what APCD needs.

I didnt watch the videos, but I think its also worth keeping in mind that there is such a thing as too many elevation points. It might be very messy to work with in APCD if the elevation points are too dense, at least if they are so everywhere.
I created a tutorial about 10 years ago on how to download topo data from the US National Map Viewer (at the time a GeoTIFF was the best format option) and convert it to a DEM (using a freeware program called 3DEM) that could be imported into APCD. That tutorial used to be posted in the Tutorial Corner section of the old LC site, but I don't think all those old files made the transition to the new site. I still have it as a PDF.

One of the main issues with importing DEMs into APCD is that the maximum number of verts that can be imported is 100,000. With GeoTIFF data, that meant that the maximum resolution for the source data was somewhere between 3m and 10m data (i.e. 1 vert every 3m or 10m). 3m data was likely going to exceed the 100,000 vert import limit unless the plot was very compact (small area or efficient footprint like a square).

I suspect LIDAR data in its native resolution would greatly exceed the 100,000 vert import limit without some sort of pre-processing in a separate program like ArcGIS to reduce the vert resolution so that it gets below the limit for the import. I've never tried ArcGIS due to the cost. I had dabbled with some freeware GIS apps at the time but they were pretty clunky interfaces.

Occasionally on the old LC site there were subtle hints among the top designers that there was a custom insider version of APCD that increased or eliminated the vert import limit. I'd asked several times but never got any confirmation that such a version did exist. Usually the response was dismissive like "too many verts makes APCD slow down and hard to work with." A course I had been working on was well over 100,000 verts (through manual addition, not via import) and I didn't have any issues. Maybe it was an issue originally on older PC technology but it seems to be less of an issue now.

LIDAR definitely could be a huge improvement in terms of capturing greens contour and bunker shaping, but it would likely have to be accompanied by strategic pre-processing in a GIS app to prep it for import into APCD, especially if no workaround for the vert limit could be found.

John
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sagevanni
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by sagevanni »

I just created a base course with 207,000 verts. I validated and saved with no problems. It is 12,145 bytes in size.

I think it might be the "import" that is the problem but I have imported "DEMS" with well over 100,000 verts.

It does not seem there is a 100,000 vert limit. Mind this is just a base plot.
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migolfer
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by migolfer »

Danny D wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 6:02 am
Adelade wrote: May 21st, 2022, 8:30 pm The key would be for someone to figure out how to convert the lidar data into DEM format, which is what APCD can accept. ...
... LIDAR data can be converted to DEM. ... You Tube also has several videos on it.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +format%3F
I am also interested in being able to get/create a ".dem" file which APCD would read. I actually did this nearly 20 years ago, but did not take very good notes and the forum posts from those days are long gone. This video from your search results seemed promising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFLxnBTgtnw ("QGIS 4 Arch - LiDAR to DEM with LASTools"). After following their steps using the area I was interested in, I ended up with "DEM" but not a ".dem" file. What that video really means is that you have a "Digital Elevation Model" at the end of their tutorial, NOT a file with the ".dem" format/type/file name extension. That's a whole different step. The final file I ended up with is a "GeoTIFF" with ".tif" file extension.

I think the trouble here is that nobody uses the ".dem" file format anymore so it is hard/impossible to find anything that would produce/publish that file type. When I did this way back when, I think it was easier to download ".dem" files on the internet. There aren't any of these anymore, near as I can tell.
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Adelade
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by Adelade »

Sage, are your standard APCDs of the 3D clone tool model? (If you have it, the "File" menu will display options mentioning "Master save" and stuff, which the normal APCD doesnt have). Im just asking because - perhaps the reason you're able to import more than 100 000 vert DEMs, might be because you do have the 3D clone tool?
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jwgriffingca
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by jwgriffingca »

Adelade wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 7:28 pm Sage, are your standard APCDs of the 3D clone tool model? (If you have it, the "File" menu will display options mentioning "Master save" and stuff, which the normal APCD doesnt have). Im just asking because - perhaps the reason you're able to import more than 100 000 vert DEMs, might be because you do have the 3D clone tool?
That's a really interesting thought. I had once thought about trying to use the clone tool version to stitch together pieces of imported plots into one file - keeping each individual plot within the 100k vert limit at import, but then putting them together into one file with more than 100k verts - but it never occurred to me that the clone tool version might also have that limit removed...

John
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jwgriffingca
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by jwgriffingca »

migolfer wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 7:00 pm
Danny D wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 6:02 am
Adelade wrote: May 21st, 2022, 8:30 pm The key would be for someone to figure out how to convert the lidar data into DEM format, which is what APCD can accept. ...
... LIDAR data can be converted to DEM. ... You Tube also has several videos on it.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +format%3F
I am also interested in being able to get/create a ".dem" file which APCD would read. I actually did this nearly 20 years ago, but did not take very good notes and the forum posts from those days are long gone. This video from your search results seemed promising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFLxnBTgtnw ("QGIS 4 Arch - LiDAR to DEM with LASTools"). After following their steps using the area I was interested in, I ended up with "DEM" but not a ".dem" file. What that video really means is that you have a "Digital Elevation Model" at the end of their tutorial, NOT a file with the ".dem" format/type/file name extension. That's a whole different step. The final file I ended up with is a "GeoTIFF" with ".tif" file extension.

I think the trouble here is that nobody uses the ".dem" file format anymore so it is hard/impossible to find anything that would produce/publish that file type. When I did this way back when, I think it was easier to download ".dem" files on the internet. There aren't any of these anymore, near as I can tell.
If you have a GeoTIFF then you are almost there. The freeware tool I mentioned called "3DEM" will do the final step of converting the GeoTIFF into a .dem which APCD can import.

Here is a Dropbox link to the tutorial I made 10 years ago.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wl93uz3sw89lm ... V.pdf?dl=0

I think the first section about getting data from NMV is now obsolete (I think NMV has had major changes), but it has a section on 3DEM and then the APCD import, both of which should still be applicable. Page 20 in the tutorial has a link to the webpage where you can download 3DEM:
https://freegeographytools.com/2009/3de ... lable-here
Look for the "download it here" link in the text just below the main figure.

John
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Adelade
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by Adelade »

Excellent John :thumbup: The task 2 and 3 sections indeed should make it much less daunting to try it, for anyone who might be hesitating. The 3D clone tool can be found from the download link from this post: viewtopic.php?p=3331#p3331

I also found from where I thought I had heard that the 3D clone tool version of APCD might allow for larger DEM imports: viewtopic.php?p=7066#p7066
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
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sagevanni
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Re: Question re - 3d grass - Shadows

Post by sagevanni »

Adelade,

I only use vanilla APCD...................

Sage..... :cheers1:
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