Courses with the Toughest Greens

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gene_golf
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Joined: August 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by gene_golf »

RobV left out playing conditions as a factor since challenging conditions were introduced about 2007 and courses designed before that had only firm/fast as toughest conditions in which to play. Also where pin locations are set is a factor to be taken under consideration. There are some courses where there are some bad pin locations, say right next to a cliff on the green making putting as well chipping impossible. Otherwise these courses can be enjoyable to play by not selecting the impossible pins. If a course is one that someone plays routinely it would be good to note what locations have these impossible pins as well as noting what are the most difficult playing conditions to use.
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FOOOOORE!
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Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by FOOOOORE! »

Pinehurst #2 has always been known for having tough greens, most of them of the "turtleback" variety.
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Duglis
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Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by Duglis »

Desert Valley CC - Tournament Edition by Tim Boche
migolfer
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Joined: October 21st, 2020, 2:40 pm
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by migolfer »

pmgolf wrote: April 14th, 2020, 7:09 pm Sorry. I had already included Augusta when I read your message. Maybe someone else might like to try it.

1) I've got 2 files for you, that you can play against. Two courses. You would be wise to play a practice round first.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ny6jkqfkc4pzg ... c.REC?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0reyrx3xim17b ... c.REC?dl=0

...snip...

Let me know how you do. I have approx. 4,000 recorded rounds from a large variety of players.

Pete

Oh, too bad @pmgolf, I was going to get these .REC files and try 'em out. They're long gone now.

I've never played against a recorded player, thought it might be interesting to try.
John B
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Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by John B »

Wyntoon and Crouching Beast. You'll often find that you're better off with a 30 foot uphill putt rather than a 3 foot downhill/side hill one. Proper placement is tremendously important on these two courses.
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MrT
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Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by MrT »

For whatever reason, I suffer Chapultepec the most. At least when I play it F/F and difficult pin positions. The course is actually quite pleasant, but the greens are a nightmare. My score there is worse than on Augusta. I do not think that all holes are meant to be played F/F as the gradient is just too much and if one does not hole it, then the ball will roll even 5-10 yards away despite being barely touched by the putt. The course is also a bitch because is has tight fairways and positioning the ball with gusty or windy conditions is really hard core stuff and several par 4 are very long.. So are the 3 par 5's.
My best score ever is EVEN, but on average i play it at +6!! There are quite a few courses I feared and that I tamed more or less. Chapultepec is really a nightmare for me (again, in the F/F setting with difficult pin positions).

Among the famous courses, i tend to suffer Oakmont as well. There are so many gradient lines that, while I have a best score of -3, the variability in my scores is huge. The best approach is to hole the ball from the fairway so one does not need to putt! :whistle: But I enjoy it: it is the good kind of challenge.

Most people will be upset at me or only surprised for not mentioning Augusta, but in similar settings I played it at +3 on my very first attempt and I am regularly 1 or 2 shots above or below par.

I also believe that players have different strong and weak suites. As far as I am concerned, I fear the S/S setting the most. I just despise having to hit putts really hard. Yes, the ball will never roll away but, playing in RTS, putting hard seems to always mess up the line of the shots. In F/F I play defensively and let the ball roll its way towards the hole. Also, the S/S setting truly "disgusts" me. I hate it with a passion. I am OK to play F/F and see the ball roll past the hole with no recourse. I swear and I laugh, but when the balls stop 1-2 yards from the hole, I get really furious and my blood pressure goes to alarming levels and I get pissed and start to feel like I wish i had a bulldozer and could raze the golf course.
pmgolf
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Location: near Richmond, VA

Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by pmgolf »

Mike Jones courses are really tough for putting in the faster challenging speeds. At F/F they would probably be much easier, since I don't find much of a challenge at non-challenging speeds. Mc / Mc works well on just about any course - even Augusta isn't too difficult. But if I'm playing at my best, I love playing Augusta at Fc Fc! :clapping:

Pete
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MrT
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Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by MrT »

More curious than anything.

I probably do not have the experience that other players have here. But I pay very close attention to details (I am a mathematician by training).
My experience with the game, helped by internet reading of serious golf articles, led me to believe that Oakmont greens if played at a realistic speed
could very well be the most difficult of them all. There is hardly a flat spot on those greens and, according to some reading, they play with a stimpmeter of 15!! I agree that Augusta is a very demanding course, among the most demanding, but from trying both Oakmont and Augusta on Links 2003 and using stimpmeters close to the real life numbers, my nightmare is Oakmont.

And it is not even an issue of Oakmont vs Augusta. In fact, if I could only play one course, that would be TCP Sawgrass. So, I am just saying what I said from my factual observation. My best score at Oakmont and Augusta are currently the same. But, after I play Oakmont I am mentally exhausted and it is all because of the greens. They are more difficult than a mathematical paper to read!

One course where I almost always do bad is Chapultepec. On fast settings (even without challenging settings, often!) some holes are just impossible to play fast as simply the hole is located on steep gradient and anything that does not go into the hole is guaranteed to roll at least 5 yards, often 10 or more. I just do not think that Chapultepec is meant to be played on fast settings or the outcome is like a comedy.
doclawler
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Joined: September 16th, 2020, 2:39 pm

Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by doclawler »

I will nominate the MS version of Royal Melbourne. Played at appropriate speed (Fc/Mc or similar), they are deceptively difficult. Only a handful of the pins are 'unfair', but if you don't leave your approach shots in the right places, you'll never score as well as you think you should. As an aside, that course is a brilliant layout. Constantly tempting you to hit shots that you can't/shouldn't hit. It's fairly easy to score low OR rack up a score in the mid-70s. Short Par 5's that you feel pressured to birdie or eagle every time, short par 4's that are just as easy to bogey as they are to birdie, and 3 extraordinary par 3's. In real life the course is subject to high winds, which only makes it even more devilish. I play on elite and enjoy the challenge, but I can see how the course would be a pushover on easier levels and slower green speeds so may not be everyone's cup of tea.
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MrT
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Re: Courses with the Toughest Greens

Post by MrT »

@doclawer .. Yes, the Royal Melbourne is a "bitch"... in some challenging settings a couple of times felt like setting the course on fire! Or, at least the greens :tongue:
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