Ranking difficulty levels on greens [SOLVED]

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MrT
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Ranking difficulty levels on greens [SOLVED]

Post by MrT »

I have been toying with settings like firmness and speed of greens.

I played the same course in F/F and in Mc/Mc. I think that the Mc/Mc setting is a tad faster than F/F. Now that is great for me in many ways because it allows me to use my favorite strategy: send the ball on fringe or near it and then attack the hole with a chip or a lob shot if too far for a chip. Fast greens are great as one can count on ball to roll its fair amount and, after a bit of practice, I was actually getting more birdies in the Mc/Mc setting than in F/F. Course was Valhalla (the newest one, which is beautiful by the way).

I did some experiments with Fc/Fc, I think that the balls move too fast for realism. Granted, I never played famous courses in tournament setups, but that seems too fast based on my visual experience. Maybe I am wrong, but in any case, on some holes the ball will roll away from it and I am quite confident that PGA or other organization have certain requirements about the speed of greens. If the game becomes like minigolf, then the sport will suffer or we could just add dragons that come out of the green completely at random to eat the balls, or windmills that will push your ball away if you hit them, etc.

The condition that I cannot digest are the slowest possible. It just makes me mad and I feel like bulldozing the golf course, if only a could find a big Caterpillar front loader. That is where I really play abominably. Playing in RTS and putting, when I need to hit the ball very hard, it is ruining my aiming and never seem to be able to hit 100% straight.

I am all in for adding difficulties, but when the difficulties are just for the difficulty's sakes, I am starting to have mixed feelings.

Is there a ranking of the speeds of the greens among all the possible combinations of settings? I assume that Fc/Fc is the fastest. But, besides that? Personally, I think that if I am going to pursue difficulties, I will be more inclined to play in regular settings and play without top view and even power indicator before going for the challenging settings. But I do like speedy greens as they agree with my strategy. Yet, on some holes they can look ridiculous. On one hole the ball kept rolling down all the way to the fringe every time I could not send it in the hole, for instance. Once or twice it is ok, more than that it starts to look clownish and a game one plays to laugh with friends more than anything else.

I have another question. I have never played in tournaments. In tournaments, i.e. playing online with other players, what are the settings chosen?
Last edited by MrT on June 27th, 2021, 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stephen Sullivan
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by Stephen Sullivan »

It is pinned just above your post viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11 :tongue: :thumbup:
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Adelade
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by Adelade »

There is a sticky for the green speeds at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11 As for which ones are used in tournaments, depends completely on which tours. Many play the old non challenging settings, some play the challenging settings, for me the more realistic tours are European and World tour on LSPN which use mixed settings between the listed "stimp" from the stickie thread of about 10-11 to 15-16.

I made a comparison about half a year ago though, because I felt like those stimp numbers for Links seemed a little bit high compared to real life stimps based on how it "felt" like to me, and I thought of a way to test out if I was right about it. I measured the time spent by the ball rolling in 3 different videos of real life stimp testing relative to the real stimp value measured, and compared to the time spent in Links on 100% flat ground at different conditions, and found that the numbers in the sticky are about 13-16% off. For example, a video where they measured real life stimp 9.9 the ball rolled for the same amount of time that a ball rolled in Links on flat ground on Mc/Mc 11.5 (for the same distance), so Mc/Mc would seem like its pretty much 10 real life stimp. At least much closer to that than the listed 11.5, I think is safe to conclude, since that amount of gap was quite consistent in all 3 videos I checked. I could post some more stuff about it later today if anyone cares. This would suggest that Fc/Fc for example is more like real-life 15.5 than 18.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
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pmgolf
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by pmgolf »

Adelade wrote: June 15th, 2021, 8:21 am I made a comparison about half a year ago though, because I felt like those stimp numbers for Links seemed a little bit high compared to real life stimps based on how it "felt" like to me, and I thought of a way to test out if I was right about it. I measured the time spent by the ball rolling in 3 different videos of real life stimp testing relative to the real stimp value measured, and compared to the time spent in Links on 100% flat ground at different conditions, and found that the numbers in the sticky are about 13-16% off. For example, a video where they measured real life stimp 9.9 the ball rolled for the same amount of time that a ball rolled in Links on flat ground on Mc/Mc 11.5 (for the same distance), so Mc/Mc would seem like its pretty much 10 real life stimp. At least much closer to that than the listed 11.5, I think is safe to conclude, since that amount of gap was quite consistent in all 3 videos I checked. I could post some more stuff about it later today if anyone cares. This would suggest that Fc/Fc for example is more like real-life 15.5 than 18.
Right on target, Adelade! I agree 100%!

And MrT: there are pin positions that are meant to be used with slower green speeds, and pin positions that are acceptable for use with the faster (and fastest) green speeds. That's true with Links and real life, too! At LSPN.net, on the World Tour, I occasionally use the fastest settings for a tournament round, but that's only after I go into Links in it's "Practice Mode" and examine each and every pin position for acceptability at those settings. I don't believe there are any "Rules" for pin positions on the PGA Tour, but there are "suggestions" that are pretty closely followed, like the following:

From the USGA:
"The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes."

And:

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

Here are a few Fc Fc recorded rounds showing the course used. Start a round at that course with Fc Fc, the same wind, and add the appropriate recorded round - allowing the game to use the recorded rounds' pin positions. Don't expect low scores! :smile:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fpg6ci52fzhfw ... c.zip?dl=0

Pete
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Adelade
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by Adelade »

Heres my own stimp list I made based on my findings in the test back then (Im sorry if the colours make it ugly, I made them to allow myself to easier and quicker differentiate the conditions (they're colour coded)), along with some interesting associations of reported real life stimps that I found reports of here and there over the internet. Basically I concluded that the actual experienced stimp in Links is equal to the listed Links stimp multiplied by 0.87, or if counting the experienced stimp as base value: Experienced stimp x 1.15 = Links Listed Stimp.

Stimps Based on Ball Travel Time Tests.jpg
Stimps Based on Ball Travel Time Tests.jpg (183.61 KiB) Viewed 3943 times

As you can see with the faint light gray bracket, back in 1978 there was a really huge range of stimps on the PGA tour depending on where and when they played, before course maintenance and such became more advanced on a widespread level. "Slowest on pro tours" is based on info about whats common on tours such as the European Tour, or the PGA event at Kapalua Plantation where the stimp is kept lower to prevent the strong winds from having too much of an effect on the greens. Keep in mind these are approximations and generalizations.

Sadly, there is a pretty big gap of conditions just around the stimp range (11 to 12) that the PGA reportedly play at most commonly (as of 2019 anyway, I think that source was from), and only M/Fc fits there. I really wish there was one or two or maybe three conditions between the big gap of M/Fc to F/Fc but hey, I guess we should be happy that those exist at all :smile:
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Adelade
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by Adelade »

And of course play on whatever speeds you all enjoy :smile: this is just for those who may find it interesting, nothing else.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
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Still Linksing
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by Still Linksing »

Good work Adelade. I'll use yours. :thumbup:
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MrT
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by MrT »

Thank you for your inputs....

So, it would appear that, for me, as long as I practice a bit, the fast conditions are the more general case on the pro-circuit.
Now, this is a game, so it is rare not to hit the balls well and roughs and sands are much easier to get out than in real life, but that is good for me
because as I wrote in my original post, I prefer to play on fast settings and let the balls roll... Yes, some hole may not be suitable for very fast settings, but overall, I get the picture. In RTS, putting hard for me it is difficult as there is a tendency to deviate from a straight line while not so on fast greens were one only needs to barely touch the ball and it will go for yards.

That is good. Fast and furious on greens! :thumbup: :cheers1:
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MrT
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by MrT »

After several attempts, I changed my mind.. Mc/Mc or faster is probably fun if one does not play with difficult pin positions. But, with difficult pin positions, i.e. holes are located towards the fringe and/or closer to hazards; any little mistake gets magnified. Balls hardly stop and pretty much at this setting it is already very easy to end up on the fringe or very far from hole after every putt that does not go in the hole. I do not even think I am ever going to try Fc/Fc because that would be just to laugh pretty much.

It is also not a great idea to switch between challenging and non challenging settings as they are enormously different and one is almost guaranteed to make a mess with the power of the shots.

Maybe, sometimes, there is too much of a good thing. I mean, I love to play it safe on greens and in challenging settings I do not risk to end up short of the hole, but seeing the ball bending even when the grid says that it shouldn't or going 5 yards past the hole because the ball never seems to stop, not sure that is my thing.

I tried before, but those courses had flat greens. As soon as I tried more challenging courses with sloped greens things looked dramatically different. And several times in difficult pin positions setting, the hole was not on a flat spot, i.e. you miss it, you pay 2x for it. Even 3x if you play carelessly or there just a big gradient.

I think that I will continue to enjoy the beautiful courses that our great designers are making available, but at my pace. No need to compete and get aggravated or upset or wish the world a third world war after every putt. True that I tried to put together too many things at once: medium/difficult course, windy, difficult pin positions, pretty fast greens, but the fun just was not there. Yes, a couple of rounds went well, around even, nevertheless, I am not enjoying the game like this.

Still, I am grateful that now I can say that I have understood this stimpmeter thing and how the settings rank in terms of challenge.
Thank you everyone who assisted.

PS. I just noticed one thing: at least on my installation of Links, I cannot use the challenging settings in practice mode. I need to play a round in order to select them. Is that normal?
pmgolf
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Re: Ranking difficulty levels on greens

Post by pmgolf »

The conditions are in what is called a drop-down window. There are controls to the right. Move the slider down to see the challenging conditions.

Pete
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