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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 554
Location
SE Missouri

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

Hi gang...

Speaking as a course designer, I'd like an opinion from the players.

I'm curious about how particular you are about the looks of a course, such as the grasses. Do you prefer nice clean plush fairways, greens, tees, rough etc? Or would you rather see something more natural with patchy grasses with divots and bare scruffy looking type ground textures?

I myself have always striven for perfection in my courses. I wanted them to look perfect. I realize it's pretty unrealistic to play perfect courses. Does everyone else feel the same?

I've spent the last several days creating some of my own grass and water textures. I'm most curious what I should use on my new course. Can you guys offer some advice so I know which way to go? Us designers would be interested in some opinions from the players so we can continue to design the kind of courses you like..

Thanks, and best wishes,

Dan


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pmgolf



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 656
Location
Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

The courses I like the best aren't perfectly manicured. Lakes don't need to be free of patches of grass at some of the edges. Heavy rough in strategic places only. High grass areas for looks. More of a natural look. Plus I like features like tee boxes that aren't perfectly lined up - a middle tee that gives you a different look at the hole, for instance.

And thanks for creating courses!

Pete


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ww2marine



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 524
Location
Nashua NH

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

Agree with the above.

Nature isn't perfect so why try to make it so.Plantings are the last thing I notice on a course. Playability, hole routing interest me more than how the course looks.

I would look at some of the best fictional courses to get ideas.


Bob,


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Reach for the golden ring
Never to end but to begin again
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mashie



Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 434
Location
Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

I definitely prefer the natural scruffy look. These courses are the most realistic in appearance. When everything is perfectly done the course takes on an almost arcade look.

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gator



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

Danny D wrote:
...natural with patchy grasses with divots and bare scruffy looking type ground textures...

This would be my preference - natural.


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noelk



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3477
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Still call Australia home

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:52 pm    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

mashie wrote:
I definitely prefer the natural scruffy look. These courses are the most realistic in appearance. When everything is perfectly done the course takes on an almost arcade look.
Spot on!


"For where your treasure is, there will be your heart also."

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mistermike40



Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:27 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

I agree... a more natural look is best.

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Redskin



Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 276
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California

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:54 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

I too agree with a more natural look. But not making the fairway's so narrow that only in a very NO WIND situation will get it where you want it. And more deep type rough in places where the fairway gets narrow would be good.
And thanks for creating good course and thank you too for asking.


Don't worry about temptation. As you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 554
Location
SE Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

Hi guys.

Thanks for your input. It looks like everyone who responded agreed that they like the more realistic "worn" look of the grasses. I agree with you all, but there's a phenomenon we have to contend with called "tiling". It is impossible to create a texture with any detail in it because of this, and it looks horrible when you're playing Links. That was the only reason my last course had plush undamaged grass. If the whole texture is uniform all through, it doesn't show the tiling so bad.

Keep this in mind. When we create a texture, it will cover an area of 16'x16' in real life. Just think of it as a tile with a picture in it. The APCD will place that tile on the ground, side by side, and top to bottom and lock them all together in 16'x16' squares. If there is any detail in that square, such as a divot, then the divot will be repeated in every tile that's needed to fill in the area we are planting. (note: The "tile" I refer to is what is known as a "planar" in the APCD. The APCD's default planar size is 16'x16')

This to me has been the most frustrating thing I've ever dealt with. And with a guy with the degree of OCD that I have, it drives me crazy. (OCD = Old Codgers Disease) Laugh

I'll show you guys some examples of what I'm talking about. Here are 2 textures I created. I really love the looks of both of them, and would like to use them on my course. I think they look great in the playing area surrounding the player. However, when you look up ahead of you, the tiling from the texture looks like hell. Or at least it does in my opinion.

What do you guys think about that tiling effect? Does it irritate you as much as it does me, or am I just being too ana.... umm... picky about this?

I'd like some thoughts on this subject.

Once again, thanks to everyone for their input... Cheers


Lake Close-up


Lake Distant


Deep Rough Close-up


Deep Rough Distant


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sagevanni



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 436

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

I hate the tiling effect..........It would be so much better if it could be like a seam blend.

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noelk



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3477
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Still call Australia home

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

I assume you're using 1024 x 1024 textures? Imagine the grief the designers had back in Links 2001 with 256 x 256 textures, or even Links 2003 stock 512 x 512s - so for every one of your 1024 tiles there would have been 16 and 4 respectively Scared
Unfortunately it's just one of those things you have to practice at and master to lessen the tiling effect



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McCoist



Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 499

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:46 pm    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

You can make a mid texture that will reduce tiling.

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JWGriffinGCA



Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 924
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

noelk wrote:
I assume you're using 1024 x 1024 textures? Imagine the grief the designers had back in Links 2001 with 256 x 256 textures, or even Links 2003 stock 512 x 512s - so for every one of your 1024 tiles there would have been 16 and 4 respectively Scared
Unfortunately it's just one of those things you have to practice at and master to lessen the tiling effect


Noel - I'm not sure that's true. I think the lower resolution textures cover the same area as a 1024 texture, but with far less detail (more pixelation). That's why the 1024 textures allow for so much more definition ("HD") but they do make it harder to avoid tiling because of that additional detail.

Dan - I share your frustration. I've found it takes a lot of effort to find a balance between desirable non-uniformity and unsatisfactory tiling. Mids do help in the longer views as McCoist suggests, especially if you take out some of the non-uniformity from the base texture, but they aren't always the miracle cure.

Water textures are an absolute &%$@*. I've been trying to make a good lake texture for what seems like ages. I'd love to have some ripples but man, do they lead to some harsh tiling...

John


When it comes to havoc, nobody wreaks like me! -Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz
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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 554
Location
SE Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:33 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

McCoist wrote:
You can make a mid texture that will reduce tiling.
Thanks McCoist. That thought had already crossed my mind, but I dismissed it because I thought mid textures only work on overhead views and not views from ground level. Unsure

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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 554
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SE Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:41 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

JWGriffinGCA wrote:
Water textures are an absolute &%$@*. I've been trying to make a good lake texture for what seems like ages. I'd love to have some ripples but man, do they lead to some harsh tiling...

John
Sure do. Wall Bash

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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 554
Location
SE Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:14 am    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

Hi Guys...

I finally managed to create a decent looking pond, or lake texture, with minimal tiling effect. This can be used as a more realistic looking choppy, non-reflective water texture. It's also viable as an option for eliminating the streaks that show up if the water and land levels clash.

You can create a planar for it and adjust the size of the waves for different looks. I have one of my ponds set at 32, and it looks pretty good from all views in the APCD. Of course if this color doesn't suit you, you can always adjust the colors to suit your own needs. I have this one set in the colors of the actual pond that I took the pictures of. Fortunately I have a drone with a 4k camera and am able to get some top views of just about anything I need at 4000x3000 resolution.

I hope it will be of some use for those of you looking for a non-reflective lake texture. The zip-file contains the completed 1024x1024 ready-to-use texture. Hope some of you can find it useful. If you want a copy you can download it here. http://users.isp.com/dannyd/lakewater.zip

Best wishes,

Dan

NOTE: I believe it's pretty much impossible to create a texture that contains any detail in it without some amount of tiling effect. This is about as close as it gets as far as I'm concerned. Keep in mind that you can also get different looks from this texture by simply rotating the planar. For example, if you are looking across the pond toward a green, and you see any tiling at all, you can make it go away by rotating the planar. Be sure and experiment with the size and rotation to get the best look for your particular application.




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JWGriffinGCA



Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 924
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

Danny D wrote:

Fortunately I have a drone with a 4k camera and am able to get some top views of just about anything I need at 4000x3000 resolution.


Hi Dan, thanks for sharing the fruits of your labor (and your drone)! I'll give it a whirl and see if I can make it work for what I need. I haven't had a chance to get back to APCD and try anything for a while.

Thumb Up

John


When it comes to havoc, nobody wreaks like me! -Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz
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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 554
Location
SE Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:35 pm    Post subject: Design Opinions Needed from Links Players... Reply with quote

JWGriffinGCA wrote:
Danny D wrote:

Fortunately I have a drone with a 4k camera and am able to get some top views of just about anything I need at 4000x3000 resolution.


Hi Dan, thanks for sharing the fruits of your labor (and your drone)! I'll give it a whirl and see if I can make it work for what I need. I haven't had a chance to get back to APCD and try anything for a while.

Thumb Up

John
You're welcome John. I remember you mentioning trying to create one yourself. Hopefully you can make use of this one. Thumb Up

Dan


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