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Ian wells



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:25 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Pete,
Thanks for the new comments, and all your previous comments have been incorporated. As I write this reply I have revised the greens of holes 1 through 9 and I am presently modifying the layout of the new teeing area of hole 9.

After my pathetic attempt at designing the green I wanted to know more and while searching I came across this article. It may be beneficial to other designers:
http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/2000s/2008/080721.pdf

(I should have read it before I made the greens.) Wall Bash

Thanks again Pete,

Ian


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pmgolf



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 667
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Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

That is indeed a great article! I highly recommend it to anyone who sets up tournaments with Links. Good luck, Ian, and the course looks terrific!

Pete


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gene_golf



Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

I had seen back in 2015 that when course was started Glenn Braden mentioned that no Strakaline information had been done for this course. Even having the real elevations for greens it would still be a process to determine where pins might be located. I ran across this process as to what some of the well known designers in Links had to say was their technique. Stewart Parker had this to say as to how he set pin positions, "Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: Question for Designers - re Pin Difficulty
You go into top view in APCD and place pins where you think the easy pins should be. You then look in game cam and find they are all on slopes . You then move them to places where you think they will now be easy. You play in links and find some are ok but some are not . You then shift them about again. ETC ETC. Then do the same for moderate pins then difficult pins..
At the end of all this if you haven't gone of your rocker you should have pins with the proper ratings in the proper place.
No matter how hard you try there is always one unplayable pin somewhere.


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Ian wells



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Gene_golf,
Thanks for that reference. I had not seen it before, and who am I to argue with Mr Parker?

I will certainly give it a try on the next course and hope that I "haven't gone of my rocker" by the end of it.

Ian


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Ian wells



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

I have just completed a round on Wade Hampton and I can only apologize for issuing the course. It is not fit to be played. (I have obviously played all the holes many times during the making of the course, but never played a round. I did watch David Toms play the course a number of times and he had no problems!)

I will go back to the drawing board and make all the modifications necessary including a redesign all the greens and get rid of the flying trees. (Pete, I thank you for your comments and time, and I apologize for wasting your time.)

At present I am too disappointed to begin the redesign so I do not know when it will be completed.

My apologies to all.
Ian


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pmgolf



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 667
Location
Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Ian, you should feel nothing but pride at the beautiful course you created! Greens present challenge of a different sort, since you must allow for function in addition to looks. A little more work and you will have created a very exciting and playable Links course that will stay on the hard drive of many fans. Not an easy feat, my friend!

Pete


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pete



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 193
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UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Well worth keeping at it Pete its one of the most beautiful courses in Links

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doclawler



Joined: 28 May 2016
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Does anyone know roughly what the height of the yellow bar on the breakline indicator correlates to, slope percentage wise? In other words, how tall is the bar for a 1% slope, 3% slope, 5% etc.?

Thanks


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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 601
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SE Missouri

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:15 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

In continuing the conversation started recently about green speed and pin placements, I firmly believe the new greens conditions were set too severe in the 1.07 mod. No course should ever have conditions so severe the the ball won't come to a rest near a pin. I stopped using those severe conditions not long after they were added because of that.

TO PETE: I tried 4 times to play that tourney that you set up at Rugged Dunes, but there was no way for me to keep the ball on the greens. The speeds and conditions were way too severe for that particular course. I finally gave up after restarting the first round 4 times. Surrender Laugh Perhaps it's possible for some to play under those conditions, but it's way beyond what I find reasonably enjoyable.

TO GENE: You are correct in assuming the newer speeds and conditions set up with the new mod are beyond what should be normal for Links courses. I agree that ridiculously steep breaks should be avoided when creating a course, but I have discovered that even if we use the most accurate information available to re-create real courses, many of the green slopes are still too steep to use with those most difficult of speeds in Links. That kinda creates a clash between us course designers that are trying to create a course as accurately as possible and Linksters that like the extreme speeds.

Just as an example, the Wade Hampton course. I have played it several times, but I always keep the speeds within what I personally believe to be reasonable. I thought the greens were fine and within reason. And then I read the lengthy discussion about pins placements and green conditions, and watched Ian go away severely disappointed in a job that he has spent months of his life on. Huh?

I speak of this because I'm going thru the same thing. I'll be spending a year of my life in creating the course I'm presently working on. Do you have any idea how disappointing it would be to put a years worth of time and passion into replicating a real course as accurately as possible just to have it turned away by the Links community because it can't hold up to the overly severe conditions that Links can be set up for? And then the solution would be to re-shape the greens to meet the most severe conditions? For one, it would make the greens too easy when playing slower speeds, and two, it would take away from the realism of the actual course.

With all that said, what do we do about a solution? Is it all about the designers not placing pins in bad locations, like on the sides of a slope? I believe most of the serious designers already take that into consideration. Do the tournament directors take certain courses into consideration and adjust their conditions accordingly? After what Ian just went thru, I'd like to know whats expected of us as designers before I set any pins.

Thanks for your time and input fellas, your opinions and ideas are needed.

Dan Cheers


MULLIGAN: A thieving second shot employed by golfers to prove the first one was no mistake
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sagevanni



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 493

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Danny D.
Right on......I agree with all you have said.
Links allows you to set a course for SUPER easy play and IMPOSSIBLE play.
If the greens are flat you can set all the setting to impossible and still "win".
If the greens have severe slopes you can set the setting to super easy and also "win".
Very good rant Danny....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sage...... Smile


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Stephen Sullivan



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1477
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

As the European Tour director at LSPN, I like to think I set sensible and reasonable conditions for each event.

I tend to avoid choosing pins on silly slopes as much as I can ( I've even discarded a whole set of selections after finding just a couple of bad greens). If there are a lot of sloped pins I will lower the firmness and speed I use, and often used mixed conditions (Firmness only).

I use a lot of Firm Medium(Ch) and Moderate Fast(Ch) for my events as they seem to produce the most realistic conditions for the courses I use.

I very rarely use Firm(Ch) as I don't think the bounce it gives is realistic or fair on most courses.

As a designer I know it's difficult to get all the pins correct first time as it isn't easy to see the slopes correctly in APCD. That is why I use a numbered grid and a table in word to check and amend all the pins (some poor ones have been known to get through even a beta Whistle )

PS I wish I had the time to do more courses, but setting up a tour and playing take up the vast majority of the free time I have.


"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." Sir Terry Pratchett
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pmgolf



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 667
Location
Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Danny D wrote:
TO PETE: I tried 4 times to play that tourney that you set up at Rugged Dunes, but there was no way for me to keep the ball on the greens. The speeds and conditions were way too severe for that particular course. I finally gave up after restarting the first round 4 times. Surrender Laugh Perhaps it's possible for some to play under those conditions, but it's way beyond what I find reasonably enjoyable.


Wow! You couldn't keep the ball on the green with Firm and Fast-Challenging conditions? Seriously? I understand if you couldn't keep ALL approach shots on the green, but you couldn't keep ANY on the green? Full 8-9-PW-SW iron shots from the fairway? How did you make them roll off the green? There are shots I can't keep on the green at F Fc - shots from the rough, 3-4-some5 iron shots, poorly hit shots, but that's not the fault of severe conditons - that's golf!

I average playing one round of Links a day, and I have since the early 90's. There should be a version of Links for people like me - and there is - the Challenging level. There is also a version of Links for folks like you, Danny. If you truly can't keep a PW on the green when playing 'Firm Fast-challenging', there are speeds from 'Soft - Soft' to 'Fast - Fast' available without using 'challenging'. You can choose whichever tournaments you wish to play in, but don't complain if you attempt one that's out of your skill level.

Now Pin Positions: What's the problem with wanting courses to have variety in their pin placement. Something like a third of those positions in the range used on the PGA Tour (like reality), and the other two-thirds on slopes ranging from mild to severe and unplayable if that's where course designers enjoy placing them. When I set up tournaments I ignore bad pins, but where I have a problem is when ALL pins on a particular HOLE are bad *. (#6 at Wade Hampton) In that case I can't use that course for a tournament which is a shame if the rest of the course is terrific.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* John Sanford, president of the American Society of Golf Course Architects, says he has a rule of thumb for establishing pinnable positions ON ABOUT 75 PERCENT OF THE SURFACE OF THE GREENS that he designs. “You can’t have a hole positioned anywhere where the slope is more than 3 percent,” he said. “Otherwise, you might just miss the hole, and now you’re 10 feet by, coming back. That’s not fair.”

But what is 3%? A length of 12 feet times 12 inches equals 144 inches, times 3 percent equals a slope of 4.32 inches over the entire 12 foot length. Break that into 3 foot lengths equals 1.08 inches of elevation change.

12 ft. * 12 in. = 144 in. * .03 = 4.32 (in. of slope in 12 ft) / 4 (3 ft. segments) = 1.08 in. of slope in 3 ft.

So the 3 percent slope John Sanford is talking about is approximately 1 inch of elevation change between the hole and any spot 3 feet away from the hole. Even at Fc Fc, the ball would not roll back to you when putting up that slope.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And I didn't set out to hurt Ian's feelings with my commentary on Wade Hampton. I volunteered and explained what I was doing and he was ok with it. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, though. I didn't realize you were that sensitive Dunno

Pete


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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 601
Location
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:20 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

pmgolf wrote:

Wow! You couldn't keep the ball on the green with Firm and Fast-Challenging conditions? Seriously? I understand if you couldn't keep ALL approach shots on the green, but you couldn't keep ANY on the green?


I was being a little over-dramatic Pete. Let me clarify. For one, my comment to you was not a personal shot at you, or a criticism. I only mentioned my specific experience with playing that course under those conditions as an example of the subject I was posting about. That specific course cannot be played under the most extreme conditions. Even with the "challenging" conditions that you had it set for, I didn't enjoy it. Remember, I'm not complaining to YOU for setting it up, so no need for you to get your feelings hurt. You were involved in the Wade Hampton discussions, so I simply used Rugged Dunes as an example of how difficult the game can get with challenging conditions. I meant nothing more...

As far as playing the game. I started with the original floppy discs as Links, the Challenge of Golf. I also play one or more rounds a day and have been ever since the game was invented. I have played and ran ladder systems in the past, and competed in many tournaments at various Links sites throughout the years. I'm as experienced as anyone else in the game. However, the new challenging conditions are not enjoyable to me, and I made a personal decision to not play under those conditions. It's just my preference. This is actually the first time in my life that that I've ever even brought it up or discussed it, so it's not like I'm trying to make a huge deal out of it. I'm only one man in thousands that play the game, and we all have our own likes and dislikes about it. Who am I to try and change it? My intention was to find out what is expected of me, as a designer. Now that I am retired, I finally got to turn my attention to the APCD, and I'd prefer to make the best of my course creation with what time I have left of my "golden years". If my comment offended you, I apologize. It was never intended to be directed at you.

To clarify my original meaning of "can't keep the ball on the green", I was obviously exaggerating. I did in fact make 4 attempts to start the tournament. All 4 times I restarted the 1st round because of the greens. When I finally gave up trying was when I was 6 feet from a cup on a downhill side slope, made a 2 foot tap on the ball, and ended up 28 feet below the hole. I could have went ahead and finished the game under those conditions, but personally felt it was just more frustration than I wanted to deal with. "TO ME" I found them unplayable. Had I been all that upset about it, I would have taken it up with you in a PM, not in public. To repeat, the ONLY REASON I even mentioned it was not to complain about you, but to point out an example of what us designers have to deal with so were not accused of turning out trash courses...

pmgolf wrote:
And I didn't set out to hurt Ian's feelings with my commentary on Wade Hampton. I volunteered and explained what I was doing and he was ok with it. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, though. I didn't realize you were that sensitive Dunno Pete


I'm a big boy Pete. I can take it. No need to treat me like a beginner. I'm 71 years old and I've been at this a lot longer that you have. My one and only purpose of posting this was to try and figure out how us designers can please you players. Nothing more, nothing less.

Best wishes,

Dan


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pmgolf



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
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Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Danny D wrote:
I'm a big boy Pete. I can take it. No need to treat me like a beginner. I'm 71 years old and I've been at this a lot longer that you have.


Sorry, my friend, but you're just a kid. I'm 72! And I've been involved in Links since the very beginning! Tongue Laugh

Pete


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gator



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

Some thoughts from someone who hasn't "turned away" Ian's Wade Hampton GC.

While I'm not as old as some of you going back and forth here (I'm only 60), I have been playing Links since it was called Leaderboard Golf by Access software and it was played on an Atari computer in the mid-1980s - a wedding gift by the way from my wife. I have played every version of Links since then to include a version of Links 2001 that was ported over to Pocket PCs by Hexacto software with two courses (Chateau Whistler and Princeville). While I don't play in tournaments and I don't play against others online, I DO still enjoy playing the game. I will play solo or with an ani setup as my dear-departed wife. Sometimes, I'll play with Santa and an elf or two, sometimes with the Joker, and sometimes as a pirate (Captain Jack himself?). As you can see, I don't take myself too seriously when I play MY game.

What I marvel at is that we are lucky enough to have individuals who are dedicated enough to still be creating courses for this wonderful game. I look at the courses Microsoft released and compare those with what we have today and the difference is striking. Yes, it's been 16 years since Microsoft last created a crz but there was little to no seam blending. That one design concept alone has changed the realistic look to the courses.

TO DANNY D: If you put all the "time and passion into replicating a real course as accurately as possible" and the actual real slopes of the greens don't support the mod, then so be it! If it is a matter of pin placement that's different, but if the actual slopes of the real greens are not mod friendly then I don't think the designer should be expected to redisign the real green slopes to make it mod friendly. Players can just play it without the mod.

Not all of us in this community play every course with championship setups!

TO IAN: I enjoyed the hell out of Wade Hampton and look forward to your rendition of Winged Foot East. Please don't be discouraged.

Just one person's thoughts from the other side of the coin.


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Danny D



Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Posts: 601
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SE Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:59 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

pmgolf wrote:
Danny D wrote:
I'm a big boy Pete. I can take it. No need to treat me like a beginner. I'm 71 years old and I've been at this a lot longer that you have.


Sorry, my friend, but you're just a kid. I'm 72! And I've been involved in Links since the very beginning! Tongue Laugh

Pete
OK old man, then we'll call it a draw. Laugh

Would you have some spare time to offer me some advice? I have a few questions.

1: How do you determine which courses to use for your tournaments?

2: Who picks them and decides if they match your requirements?

3: What are the general requirements for a course to be used in tournaments.

4: When the discussion came up about the slopes and speeds, one short par 3 hole of my course looks as if there is no way possible for it to pass the challenging speed requirement. It's this one hole that made me turn to this discussion and wonder if my course would be turned away simply because of one hole that won't hold up to the slopes and speeds that were discussed.

Also, the par 5, 18th green is a 3-level green from front to back, with two, 2 foot high rises between levels. The areas between the rises are relatively flat. Just so you know, there is no way I would ever plant a flag in the side of a steep rise. I am a firm believer that pins should be set in places that are fair. I detest "tricked-up" courses, if you know what I mean. (meaning courses that have deliberately been designed in unreasonable fashion to make you shoot higher scores)

Here is a Google Earth shot of the short par 3 green I mentioned. It looks to me like there's not a flat area on it anywhere. Imagine trying to find places for 18 pins on this green that would meet the challenging conditions.

So, what do you think? Help

Cheers Dan



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gene_golf



Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

pmgolf wrote, "Wow! You couldn't keep the ball on the green with Firm and Fast-Challenging conditions? Seriously? I understand if you couldn't keep ALL approach shots on the green, but you couldn't keep ANY on the green? Full 8-9-PW-SW iron shots from the fairway? How did you make them roll off the green? There are shots I can't keep on the green at F Fc - shots from the rough, 3-4-some5 iron shots, poorly hit shots, but that's not the fault of severe conditons - that's golf!


By stimp chart firm/fast challenging would be 15.5. Playing a pre mod course such as Rugged Dune put out in 2004 even with pin settings thought to be relatively flat around hole, say 3 feet out in perimeter seems to be masochism. Even more so would be playing a course at the most extreme settings, which would be an 18. Add in having a downhill chip or putt and the ball will not stop on the green even if there is 3 feet perimeter being absolutely flat. Just recently played Wade Hampton with Stephen Sullivan's recommended settings of Firm Medium(Ch) and Moderate Fast(Ch) and finished round under par. I agree with what gator wrote that Wade Hampton is all right---as is, provided crazy mod settings are not used. I did note that dan uses a click stroke, whereas pmgolf by screenshots shown uses a real time swing. The latter may be somewhat less sensitive if having to hit fast downhill putts. I have tried that swing and chipping, hitting out of sand traps and putting are hard to get the hang of doing that way.


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Duck Hook



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 433
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Gilgandra , NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

There was nothing wrong with the first round F Fc conditions.
The last round Fc Fc might have been a different story.....Just have to think about it a bit more, and be patient...Smile

T


Last edited by Duck Hook on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total


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Duck Hook



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:12 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

posted twice, again...

Last edited by Duck Hook on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total


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pmgolf



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Wade Hampton GC BETA released for comments Reply with quote

gene_golf wrote:
By stimp chart firm/fast challenging would be 15.5. Playing a pre mod course such as Rugged Dune put out in 2004 even with pin settings thought to be relatively flat around hole, say 3 feet out in perimeter seems to be masochism.


Fact check: Not Rugged Dune (pre-mod) but Rugged Dune [re-done] as Rugged Dune HD (post-mod). (Just curious... you're not a Russian Troll here to stir up trouble, are you ? Smile

Quote:
Even more so would be playing a course at the most extreme settings, which would be an 18. Add in having a downhill chip or putt and the ball will not stop on the green even if there is 3 feet perimeter being absolutely flat.


Fact check: the ball will eventually stop - it just takes longer. Watch the pros play Augusta National. You just can't ht a 6 foot putt like it's a 30 foot putt. You have to think about your shot and hit the putt easier if there is a downhill slope beyond the hole.

** Danny - you've got a PM **

Pete


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